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Jargon in 'Genetics' section

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Just reading though this page on avian flu, and found the section headed 'Genetics' to be completely incomprehensible to the lay-person (i.e., someone without a higher degree in chemistry or biology). Would be nice if someone translated it into regular English. Moschopsthedinosaur

This article is about Influenzavirus A. The information you are lacking exists in other wikipedia articles. Click existing links in the article, or type unfamiliar words into the search field. If you have specific questions, please ask them. Specific questions can help us improve the article. WAS 4.250 18:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Death Toll of Annual Flu

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Seasonal influenza does not kill 36,000 people a year. The CDC fact sheet says it does, but the statistics say differently. Page 31 of the 2001 mortality report (from the CDC website) says that only 257 people were killed by influenza in that year. Page 16 the 2003 preliminary mortality report has it listed as 727 and 1,605 for 2002 and 2003, respectively. That works out to an average rate of 863. I sent them a letter about this 2 months ago, they have yet to reply. [1] [2] - unsigned


I suppose the 36,000 number for "number dying from flu per year in the United States" is a guesstimate for how many would not have died the previous year if no flu viruses existed. Suppose a 99 year old woman forgets to get her flu shot because of alzheimers, gets the flu, is hospitalized, gets pneumonia, is put on life support, has a bacteria X infection due to the life support, has heart failure as a result, has lack of oxygen to the brain as a result, dies as a result. Did she die of old age, alzheimers, flu, hospitalization, pneumonia, bacteria X, heart attack, or oxygen deprivation? WAS 4.250 22:09, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Where'd you come up with that? That isn't even hinted anywhere on their website. They quite clearly state on their fact sheet that 36,000 people die from the flu each year. And in your example, it would probably be listed as dying from bacteria X. User:INH

It's commonly known that annual flu normally kills by weakening a person, especially the elderly, who then die of a secondary infection that they would not have died from if they didn't come down with flu in the first place. That makes flu's deadliness measurable by more than the numbers that die from flu directly, but also those that die from flu indirectly. Whether to include the indirect deaths or not entirely depends on what the number is supposed to be good for. If the number is supposed to indicate the usefulness of vaccines, the indirect deaths must also be counted. WAS 4.250 19:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If it's commonly known, why isn't it said on Wikipedia? Again, that isn't even hinted on their factsheet. The factsheet isn't about the usefullness of vaccines, it just provides information about the disease. Also, the Hong Kong Flu killed 34,000 people over a period of 2 years. If the 36,000 a year figure is true, then normal garden variety flu is more than twice as deadly as some pandemic flus. That's ridiculous. User:INH

  1. "If it's commonly known, why isn't it said on Wikipedia?" If you think it should be on wikipedia someplace it currently is not, then put it on Wikipedia. Don't blame eveyone else for something you can do youself. Or maybe you think it isn't true? Google it.
  2. "Again, that isn't even hinted on their factsheet." So? It is commonly known.
  3. "The factsheet isn't about the usefullness of vaccines, it just provides information about the disease." You have evidence vaccine useage wasn't their motive?
  4. "Also, the Hong Kong Flu killed 34,000 people over a period of 2 years. If the 36,000 a year figure is true, then normal garden variety flu is more than twice as deadly as some pandemic flus. That's ridiculous." I read that as 34,000 above and beyond what a normal flu season would kill. (I'm having a hard time believing you aren't a troll. If you are for real, show some indication of researching and learning from the research.) WAS 4.250 02:11, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry. I was out of line. I've done a little research, and it looks like you're probably right. User:INH

Former talk

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See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Avian_influenza for talk prior to move here. I was going to move it, but I noticed none of it seems relevant anymore, and it's most recent additions were never relevant. WAS 4.250 19:55, 24 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The old talk is now in /Archive2. - BanyanTree 17:40, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Copied here from user talk pages

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Who can post about Bird Flu?

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I am confused, being new at this. Who can post on Avian Influenza? Are there some restrictions? The external link I have posted has now disappeared on 2 occasions. Now it sems like the whole topic has disappeared. Looks like user WAS 4.250 moved only part of it to an influenza-virus-A topic instead. What is the motivation and idea? Will the topic come back, including my link - or do I have to post another one? Thanks. User:Anernelson

WAS 4.250

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You asked me:

  1. Who can post about Bird Flu? - answer:anyone
  2. Who can post on Avian Influenza? - answer:anyone
  3. Are there some restrictions? - answer:no
  4. The external link I have posted has now disappeared on 2 occasions. - answer:anyone can add, anyone can delete
  5. Now it sems like the whole topic has disappeared. - I moved it to a new heading.
  6. Looks like user WAS 4.250 moved only part of it to an influenza-virus-A topic instead. - I moved all that existed at the time of the move.
  7. What is the motivation and idea? - "Avian Flu" is a poorly conceived title. H5N1 is what most people mean. Influenzavirus A is the topic most the content was about. Influenza is the disease.
  8. Will the topic come back, including my link? - I really don't know what link was "yours". Add it and see what happens. If it is about the disease, add it to Influenza. Cheers. WAS 4.250 04:22, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The suite of articles

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The flu vaccine is a vaccine to protect against the highly variable influenza virus.
Influenza (or as it is commonly known, the flu or the grippe) is a contagious disease of the upper airways and the lungs, caused by an RNA virus of the orthomyxoviridae family. It rapidly spreads around the world in seasonal epidemics, imposing considerable economic burden, in the form of health care costs and lost productivity. Three influenza pandemics in the 20th century, each following a major genetic change in the virus, killed millions of people.
The Orthomyxoviridae are a family of RNA viruses which infect vertebrates. It includes those viruses which cause influenza.
Influenzavirus A is a genus of the family of viruses called Orthomyxoviridae. Influenzavirus A has only one species in it; that species is called "influenza A virus". Influenza A virus causes "avian influenza" (also known as bird flu, avian flu, influenzavirus A flu, type A flu, or genus A flu). Variants are sometimes also labeled according to the species affected; such as "human flu" or "swine flu".
H5N1 is an avian influenza virus. It is a pandemic threat. H5N1 flu is what is commonly meant when talking of "bird flu" or "avian influenza" and is a viral disease that causes illness in many species including humans.
The transmission and infection of H5N1 is a concern due to the global spread of H5N1 that constitutes a pandemic threat. This article is about the transmission of the H5N1 virus, infection by that virus, the resulting symptoms of that infection (having or coming down with influenza or more specifically avian flu or even more specifically H5N1 flu which can include pneumonia), and the medical response including treatment.
The global spread of H5N1 (an avian virus) is a pandemic threat."Since 1997, studies of H5N1 indicate that these viruses continue to evolve, with changes in antigenicity and internal gene constellations; an expanded host range in avian species and the ability to infect felids; enhanced pathogenicity in experimentally infected mice and ferrets, in which they cause systemic infections; and increased environmental stability."
An influenza pandemic is a large scale epidemic of the influenza virus, such as the 1918 Spanish flu. The World Health Organization (WHO) warns that there is a substantial risk of an influenza pandemic within the next few years. One of the strongest candidates is the A(H5N1) subtype of avian influenza. WAS 4.250 05:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

the move

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It looks like this page was created in a partial cut-and-paste from avian influenza. I am not going to argue about the need to trim it down, but the actual page history that is needed for the GFDL license has been broken, as well as it being very confusing to figure out what happened. Hold on while I merge histories. - BanyanTree 16:44, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Done, but I had a caching issue where I couldn't see the merged article for a bit. Many thanks to the anon for getting rid of the ugly tail recursive redirect that the article had turned into while I was trying to figure out why I couldn't see the merged history. I've also moved /Archive1 under this talk and put the most recent contents of Talk:Avian influenza into /Archive2. - BanyanTree 17:40, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bechamp

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Since some of you are re-directing all searches for "bird flu" and "avian influenza" to this topic, which is about a virus - what choice do I have but add the link I find valuable to the original topic here? Which is "How to survive avian flu with an natural alternative method - by AJ Penepent, MD, MPH" - exemplifying Bechamp's germ theory. You have deleted it 4 times by now. But please, can't you see the problem?

Please re-direct Avian flu and Bird Flu searches to "Avian Influenza" instead. It is not proven that the virus is a cause, it could instead be an effect .....

There has been 2 competing scientific theories about flu and virus for over 100 years. And the battle isn't resolved yet. Is it really democratic to only allow theory A (= Pasteur), and not allow even one mention of theory B (=Bechamp)? I am ok if 99% is theory A, and only 1 % theory B. But why 100% versus 0%?

Isn't Wikipedia an idealistic project? I am just trying to understand what's going on, am somewhat confused by this. If I dislike one theory, which is contrary to my own, (in a longstanding scientific dispute) can I just delete it....? Or shouldn't all theories have a right to be exemplified and mentioned? Thanks, User: Anernelson

Wikipedia doesn't do "truth", we do "verifyable": placing sourced data in linked articles. Wikipedia is NOT a link farm. Perhaps you would like to add to one or more of these articles: Antoine Bechamp, Homeopathy. Or create an article like The Blood and the Third Anatomical Element. Or maybe you would like to read the below subsection and discover a few facts about why viruses are not a "theory" but a "fact". It IS proven that "avian flu" is caused by the "avian flu virus". We have pictures of it, detailed knowledge of its molecular structure, know much of its family tree, and have detailed knowledge of its physical and biological effects. Researchers have synthesized a key molecule on its surface, created a vaccine with it, using it prevents chickens from dying from H5N1, and the US government is now considering human trials with it. Please use wikipedia to learn as well as to teach. Thank you. WAS 4.250 16:17, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

immune system

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In mammals and in birds a second line of defense is established during the individual development of an organism. It is called adaptive immunity. B-lymphocytes and T lymphocytes are specialized cells of the adaptive immune system, charged with the protection against protein antigens. Phagocytes like macrophages and dendritic cells act as antigen presenting cells (APC). Within these cells proteins derived from engulfed digested viruses and bacteria, but also from the metabolism of the cell itself are broken down into peptides. Immunodominant peptides are those, which can be embedded in a cleft of a MHC protein molecule and then be brought to the cell surface for presentation where they act as coded address of the APC. The term MHC stands for “major histocompatability complex” because these molecules were first found in tissue transplantation studies. MHC proteins are found in all nucleated cells of mammals.

The main players on the immune scene are derived from self renewing stem cells. They share the genes with all other cells of a multicellular body. The lymphocyte stem cells live in the bone marrow. The differentiation of B cells takes place in bone marrow, while the T cells move to the thymus gland. During development into prelymphocytes a drastic change of the genes responsible for the expression of antigen receptors occurs. Only a selection of small parts of these genes are transcribed and translated in various genetic recombinations in each individual cell. The variety of antigen receptor proteins produced is so big, that practically all possible antigen matches are realized. During maturation, the cells proliferate and those that cannot express the antigen receptors die. At the end of maturation, one finds an enormous number of genetically different lymphocytes with structurally different antigen receptors. Since the production of receptor molecules happens independently from the presence of antigens, many of them will produce antigen receptors, which are of no later use and die. Immature lymphocytes bind strongly to self-antigens (antigens derived from cells of the host himself) and will die by apoptosis (regulated cell death). Lymphocytes that do not bind strongly are selected to survive. The mature lymphocytes multiply and move from their place of origin into the periphery of the lymphatic system where they meet antigen presenting cells like macrophages and dendritic cells, which have during their voyage through blood and lymph systems collected antigens and present them now. There are most probably several slightly different antigen receptors which may recognize the same antigen presented by a MHC.

The recognition of antigens on an APC by mature leucocytes induces the immune response. Various receptors on the surface of the T cell join corresponding molecules on the surface of the antigen presenting cell. Together they organize an immunological synapse. Molecular interactions in the synapse induce a signal to genes of the T cell which start to secrete cytokines. The T cell then differentiates into either T helper cells or T killer cells and launches a clonal expansion, each clone with its own antigen specifics properties. The T killer cells kill the infected cell to which their TRC molecule has attached; Helper cells activate macrophages and B cells. The immune responses of the B cells are the production of antibodies. They are glycoprotein molecules that a secreted by the B cells and are able to neutralize antigens in the body fluids. B cells are able to deal with protein and non protein antigens. In order to handle protein antigens however they have to contact T helper cells. While active leucocytes are short lived, each type of T and B cells produce also long-lived memory cells, which survive for many years in different tissues, where they respond readily to secondary attacks of the same antigen that caused their selection at the end of their maturation. As new native T and B cells are continuously formed, the genetic differentiation keeps on producing specific antigen receptor proteins. The genetically newly rearranged receptors represent the storage memory of the immune system. The final selection of antigen receptors out of the many possibilities offered by the storage memory serves as the working memory. The key element in an information system is the code. The role of the code is played in the immune information system by the immunological synapse. It mediates between the cell on which it is displayed and the cell carrying a corresponding receptors. The recognition represents the process of decoding. It triggers the required immune responses (data processing). The development of each leukocyte is in itself the development of a small information system. The memory cells form a reservoir of the working memory. The whole system would not work, if the cells involved would not move at the right time to the right place. This is made possible by addressin molecules expressed on endothelial cells in different atomic sites and homing receptors (members of the Ig super family) on the lymphocyte. from [3]

FOX NEWS

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Fox News just aired a documentary concerning this matter on 2-19-06 @ 22:08:00 EST. It was about the Bird Flu. Do a Google Search on FOX News. Martial Law 03:08, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It was called "Big Story Primetime:Avian Flu/ " 'The Bird Flu' " on this network. Martial Law 03:09, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]


What about maps?

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Hello there, this is my first entry in the wiki so I want to discuss first before editing. Why don't we put in a map of the reported cases of bird flu like the german wikipedia has here. Especially the link to this WebGIS seems very good to me. To be true its my company who built that thing. But thats not the most important fact about it, this map is just like a wiki where everybody can add cases. The WMS can be used in own project and the whole thing is under GNU GPL. So whats your meaning about this? And please don't argue too much abut my language, I'm no native speaker in English. --Fester franz 17:10, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See H5N1 and Global spread of H5N1. WAS 4.250 19:04, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Will humanity even survive this thing

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Hello. I was at another discussion forum at http://www.Avianflutalk.com. They said that the death rate for H5N1 is 78%. Will humanity even survive this thing???

Avianflutalk.com was created November 15, 2005, by founder Ryan Evans as the first ever website and online discussion forum to track the potential threat of an avian flu pandemic. Ryan Evans also founded the website and online forum at swinflu.org April 10, 2009. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.184.99.118 (talk) 18:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. We will. WAS 4.250 14:05, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. It's all been blown out of proportion. TruthCrusader 16:31, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Will we survive" headlines are way out of proportion. What is not out of proportion is the cost to governments and poultry farmers (including poor people with just a couple of now dead chickens). What is not out of proportion is the bonanza in massive new funding to research scientists and research corporations. What is not out of proportion is the announced threat of a pandemic. What is not out of proportion is the predicted massive social disruption and the millions of human deaths IF it becomes a pandemic before researchers figure out a solution to the problem. What is out of proprtion is the idea that it is any kind of a real threat to human life prior to mutating into a form that tramsmits easily from person to person. WAS 4.250 20:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Humanity will survive. But if it develops into a human virus as deadly as the avian virus, many human beings will not survive. A leading scientist on the Avian Flu said on World News Tonight that a human strain could wipe out as much as 50% of the human population. Perhaps more. Alexander 007 04:19, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When will it die out in the bird population?

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I have been looking for this information, but have been unable to find it. Does anyone know how long H5N1 is likely to continue in the bird population? Before too long, the birds must become immune to it, as those that cannot are selected out of the population by infection. - unsigned

No one knows. No one has a good guess. There is no data whatsoever on the issue. Your last statement is in error in many respects:
  1. it can survive for decades in very cold tundra and reinfect when new generations of birds are born without immunity
  2. just cause it is immune in some bird species doesn't make all bird species immune from it
  3. typically, avian flu is endemic in birds and doesn't cause sickness in the species it is endemic in but can cause death in other species
  4. it is continually mutating, so even being immune to an old varient says nothing about immunity to the next varient
  5. this varient of avian flu virus is behaving differently than any other ever ever know, so no data on prior avian flu viruses applies with regard to projections for the future.
Beginning to get a glimpse of the magnitude of the problem? Kills 50% of humans. Getting worse. No indication it will ever go away ("permanently endemic"). Infects more species than any avian flu ever before. Kills more birds than any avian flu virus ever before. Kills more humans than any avin flu virus than any ever before. No vaccination is even possible with prior existing techniques (so new techniques are being researched at breakneck speed). The experts are very scared. WAS 4.250 15:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmmm... the important question is whether the virus adapts to passing between humans before it dies out in the bird population. Given the high proportion of birds that are susceptible to it that die, it seems to me more likely that this virus will die out in the bird population first.--New Thought 10:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You are assuming it is deadly to all bird species it is endemic in. This was true for all HPAIs prior to H5N1. It is NOT true for H5N1. Further prior HPAIs were only endemic in farmed birds, not wild birds. Because this exists in numerous wild birds (Endemic in which wild birds? We don't know yet.) it can exist frozen in northern tundra and thaw out years from now and spread again even if it were to die out in birds. WAS 4.250 17:42, 17 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Spreading panic in order to fill Rumsfeld's wallet?

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Is there anything serious in allegations the "pandemic paranoia" about a flu that in fact has killed only some dozen people in about a decade is spread in order to increase the profit of the vaccine's patent holder Gilead Sciences which is mainly owned by Donald Rumsfeld? ROGNNTUDJUU! 00:00, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is there anything serious about "death"? It has only happened in the past, never in the future. WAS 4.250 00:36, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A serious answer requires a serious question. The experts on the subject are scared shitless. Rummy is making plenty of dough on his military-industrial investments. This is real. People make money on real things all the time. People made money on Katrina. Therefore Katrina never happened????? H5N1 is a real THREAT. It is NOT actually a present pandemic. How will Rummy benefit if you gather three months of water and food? It is a prudent move. Believe what you like. WAS 4.250 00:36, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rummy was right. The 2020–2024 H5N1 outbreak started in birds and went on to kill baby seals and minks. Now it's getting cows and the occasional human sick. Not to mention the positive test in penguins. Let's hope it doesn't end up doing human-to-human transmission before Rummy gets the human shots ready. Artoria2e5 🌉 03:26, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why not redirect Bird Flu to H5N1?

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I know it is strictly more correct to redirect Bird flu to Influenzavirus A, but most people searching for Bird Flu today are surely only interested in H5N1? Currently it is very tricky to find the right link onwards to the information you actually want.

Besides H5N1 contains a link to the "Main article" with the words "Avian influenza", which also brings you to "Influenzavirus A". I cannot see that "Influenzavirus A" would be the "main article" for Avian Flu, but even if it were, I suggest the link should be labeled "Influenzavirus A", so people know that they go back to the article they just came from.

This may break some sacred rule of Wikipedia, but rules are there to be broken. If, during a limited time frame, most people will look for information A with a particular search term, I think we should give them information A. Not information B, which contains information C, which points to information A.

Any other suggestion to give people the information they actually want? Mlewan 11:48, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I made some changes. Better? WAS 4.250 17:05, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn't this be merged with the page for Avian flu? I see that Bird flu redirects to Avian flu, while Avian influenza redirects to Influenzavirus A.
Thanks. I corrected the redirect of avian influenza to now go to avian flu. But merging iss indeed an option. The one we were useing. But dog flu horse flu and human flu have articles. "Avian flu" or "bird flu" is used to mean:
  • influenza A virus
  • flu from influenza A virus
  • influenza A viruses that are adapted to birds
  • flu from influenza A viruses that are adapted to birds
  • H5N1
  • H5N1 flu WAS 4.250 01:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Numbers

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Just out of interest, where do you get the figures for the numbers of neuraminidase, hemagglutinin and M1 proteins within the influenza A virion from? 129.67.116.31 (talk) 15:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what you are talking about. If there is a reference after the information, click on it. If not, quote here what is in the article that you are asking about. WAS 4.250 (talk) 01:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question about section: Variants and Subtypes

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In the first paragraph in this section, there's discussion of the naming convention for virus types, as in "A/Fujian/411/2002(H3N2)".

I don't see how the listed components map onto this example. Is it -- Major type [A] -- Location [Fujian] -- Species?? [411] -- Year of incidence [2002] -- Subtype [H3N2]

Suggestions: 1) Improve correlation between the attribute list and the example. 2) Insert a link to an article on naming conventions for viruses.

Answer:

Naming convention runs like:

[Influenza Type] / [Species of isolate (if human, none listed)] / [Location of Isolate] / [Isolate number to distinguish from others of same locale and year] / [Year of isolation] / [H and N subtype]

For example: A/chicken/Hong Kong/3/1998(H5N1). --Udorn1972 4/23/18 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Udorn1972 (talk • contribs) 17:22, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

F16

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This section sticks out like a sore thumb. There's no good reason to talk about this antibody or reference it so heavily. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.74.226.190 (talk) 15:15, 22 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed; it should be rewritten in a way that more broadly concerns the development of a much-hoped-for universal flu vaccine. Artoria2e5 🌉 03:29, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cap-snatching and viral mRNA synthesis

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After PA cleaves cellular mRNAs' 5'-terminal nucleotides (including cap) this oligo is used as a primer for virus RNA-dependent RNA-polymerase (complex of NP, PA, PB1 and PB2, the latter binds m7G-cap). Snatched cap is not added to viral mRNA, contrary to what is written here. Molecular biologist is requested to remove stupid stuff from the article!

Fixed. -- April 22 2018

Asian Flu of 1966

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My brother died in 1966 of the Asian Flu on the West Coast in California. He was 2yrs old 4months and 3weeks old. I beleive my mother and father were living in Los Angeles during the time. My mother had told me in great detail what had happened during this time and I have found only a few old news articles referencing the Asian Flu of 1966. During the time my mother also was very poor and had to watch other young children during the day when my brother was in the hospital so could not travel to see him very often. She would then have to travel on two bus routes to get to the hospital. The flu was highly publicized during the time but I see no mention of it in the websites except to mention Asian Flu of 1957 which was almost a decade earlier. He had gotten sick at home after 5 days he was in the hospital and 5 days later he was dead. My mother has a meticulous memory of these events but I cannot find the history of this strain from the websites. What made matters worse was the fact that the nurses were on strike. She would find him soaked from head to toe as they used to wrap the oxygen tanks with ice and the bag would then leak onto his pillow and sheets where he was also wearing a dirty diaper that would need to be changed. The nurses did not want to attend to his needs. I have read that there were treatments given for outbreaks with certain drugs that were available. I just want to find the information about this strain and I cannot find it. Your website does not mention it.

206.169.66.181 (talk) 13:49, 11 March 2012 (UTC)Regina Vargas[reply]

Segment numbers

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What is the criteria behind number the segments starting with HA? Any source available for that system? Every publication I see orders them by size as shown below.

  • PB2
  • PB1
  • PA
  • HA
  • NP
  • NA
  • M1 + M2 (nuclear export of vRNPs)
  • NS1 + NEP/NS2

- Usually they are ordered by size in base pairs. Hrodrik (talk) 01:18, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Number of encoded genes

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Research in recent years shows that flu encodes more proteins than previously thought. Up to 14 (http://www.nature.com/nrmicro/journal/v13/n1/abs/nrmicro3367.html) I forgot how to edit stuff properly, citations and all. Can someone update? Hrodrik (talk) 01:18, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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