Talk:Cross of Lorraine

Military history: European / French / World War II

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Heraldry and vexillology

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Untitled

Context, please? What is this about? Kosebamse 07:11, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Untitled 2

Are you sure the Unicode value is correct? On my system (Opera for Linux with the Helvetica font), the glyph is quite clearly a patriarchal cross. --Carnildo 04:52, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Description vs. images

The description of the Cross of Lorraine ("The lower bar is as close to the bottom of the vertical as the upper bar is to the top") doesn't match the images of the flag of Free France or the coin. Slicing 08:29, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the image of the Norsefire emblem from V for Vendetta is completely out of place, since it does not represent a Cross of Lorraine or share common origin. I am removing it for this reason. I just noticed that most of the pictures depict a patriarchal cross rather than a Cross of Lorraine. this is simply wrong and will need to be corrected. I have added links to the See also section so that it now correctly cross references with the Patriarchal cross article. ScottW 04:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Cross of Lorraine - Unicode at + 2628 and at + 2021 ‡, ( French. Croix de Lorraine or Croix d'Anjou), in Poland called patriarch cross http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchal_cross, Lithuanian cross or cross of Jagiellons cross http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagiellon_dynasty.. Through Cyril and Methodius http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius a double cross of Byzantium came to lands of Slovaks and Hungarians. To Lothringen the Cross came when the Great Moravian king Svatopluk I http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svatopluk_I "passed" it to Zwentibold of Lorraine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwentibold, the godchild of Svatopluk and son of the emperor Arnulf of Carinthia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnulf_of_Carinthia. In Western Europe known as the Cross of Lorraine. In the mid 16th century also known n Spain and Italy as Karawaka. This cross has become famous as miracle defending from death infections, who prayed before it or who worn it. It has reached to Poland from Italy as Karawaka in year 1545 and it was put as reliquary or a stone cross at villages and cities, in order to protect from pestilence. The flag of Slovakia and the Slovak coat of arms both include the similar cross but it came from Byzantine empire, not from Lorraine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Slovakia. It has found place related with christian cult here and it has appeared on armorial shields in many lands (coat of arms of the Polish king Ludwig the Hungarian http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwik_W%C4%99gierski, coat of arms of Hungarian Kingdom http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kr%C3%B3lestwo_W%C4%99gier) and towns (Krzeszowice http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kr%C3%B3lestwo_W%C4%99gier, Tołste http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/To%C5%82ste, Monasterzyska http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monasterzyska)

Bump. Should be reflected in the article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.229.222.222 (talk) 23:33, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The shape

"The lower bar is as close to the bottom of the vertical as the upper bar is to the top."

In loads of the pictures it doesnt have like that

Free France symbol

The article on the Free French Forces attributes the idea for the cross's use as a symbol of the Free French to Captain Thierry d'Argenlieu not vice-amiral Émile Muselier. I don't know which is correct, but I'm sure someone can clear this up. Dusen189 (talk) 06:38, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I went on this Wikipedia page because I was hoping to find out why the cross was used as the Free France symbol. I came to suspect it was because the smaller horizontal bar reminds people of 'Jesus the Nazarene, King of the Jews'. I thought maybe it was to remind the French Catholics in World War II that they could not be anti-Semitic. But that's just a suspicion I have. Does anyone know anything about that? Am I wrong? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.101.12.211 (talk) 23:38, 18 May 2017 (UTC) Also as I understand white was the colour of the House of Bourbon, so I suppose the white on the French flag signifies royalty. Placing the cross in the middle of the flag may be the obvious spot anyway, but still might be meaningful to put the 'King of the Jews' over the white background.[reply]

Rewrite proposal

This article is a mess. I am asking for input pro or con on doing a rewrite, and if you believe one is called for, any collaborators (pun intended) are appreciated. patsw (talk) 20:58, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I attempted to make sense of some of the ridiculous contradictions in the article. Someone will probably screw it up. Why was the Lorraine cross described as being "defaced" by the Anti Nazi French resistance? A paragraph later, it totally contradicts itself. Your right. This page is an utter disaster. Chris My clarification edit: Historical error The word "defaced" used to describe a symbol of resistance to Nazi Germany is not found in the documents of French Resistance papers or correspondence. It is however used by the Vichy government, operated under the Nazi regime. "Deface" is highly derogatory term to describe the anti-Nazi movement in Northern France. This term "deface" also contradicts two following paragraphs: " During World War II, Capitaine de corvette Thierry d'Argenlieu suggested the Cross of Lorraine as the symbol of the Free French Forces led by Charles de Gaulle as an answer to the Nazi swastika. In France, the Cross of Lorraine was the symbol of Free France during World War II, the liberation of France from Nazi Germany, and Gaullism and includes several variations of a two-barred cross."

Cpetty9979 (talk) 07:44, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

the ring

is not a similar ring as used in magnum pi used in Casablanca? 98.206.155.53 (talk) 19:08, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Needs historical image?

There should probably be an image of the historical use by dukes of Lorraine (as opposed to in central Europe), but I can't really find one except for the small crosses in image File:Marriage of HRH The Duke of Lorraine and Mademoiselle (Élisabeth Chartlotte d'Orléans) celebrated at Fontainebleau 13 October 1698.png ... AnonMoos (talk) 04:20, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can provide an historical image from coinage of Duke Rene I of Lorraine(1431-1453) which bears the cross of Lorraine. This image disputes the description of the "ancient" cross in the article as written, since the arms of the cross on this 15th century coin are of unequal length. Not sure how to provide this image. Can a more experienced contributor please advise? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tdziemia (talk • contribs) 19:15, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What about Anjou connection in Hungary, Poland, and Lithuania?

Jogaila and the Polish dynasty he founded used the Cross of Lorraine, since after his conversion, he married the Anjou princess , Jadwiga, daughter of an Anjou king of Hungary. The cross of lorraine was the coat of arms of the house of Anjou. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.71.254.253 (talk) 03:05, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Fringe theory

The modern name of the Cross of Lorraine gave rise to fringe theories, because the Slovakian coat-of-arms depicts a similar symbol. Slovakia is thought to have been the location where the Byzantine Cyril and Methodius proselytized among the "Great" Moravians in the 9th century. According to a popular Slovak legend, Zwentibald of Lorraine brought the symbol of the double cross to Lorraine because he was the godson of Zwentibald of "Great" Moravia. Do we really need to mention a highly speculative legend, as per WP:Due? Especially, because we know that the cross was originally known as the Cross of Anjou and it became connected to Lorraine only after the Anjous inherited it in the 15th century. Borsoka (talk) 16:43, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Magnum, P.I.

Under the "miscellaneous appeareances", I think it might be good to include some comments on the symbol's significance within the Magnum, P.I. franchise. - knoodelhed (talk) 21:13, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]